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Madelyn Swift is a renowned author and the president of "Childright," where she helps teachers and parents develop respectful, self-disciplined children.

You believe that there's a difference between discipline and punishment.

M.S.: Punishment is doing something hurtful to someone else because you don't like what he did. This includes social pain, such as taking away unrelated privileges; emotional pain, using verbal assaults and belittling: and physical pain like spanking, or pushing. Discipline is teaching kids principles that they can use to guide their lives. I base a lot of what I teach to parents and teachers on age-old wisdom -- the "Law of the Harvest": You reap what you sow; and "The Golden Rule": Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

You've come up with four steps to discipline. What are they?

M.S.: When a parent disciplines a child, he usually asks himself, "How do I get this child to behave?" or "How do I get this child to stop?" To stay on the path to true discipline, the parent should ask himself, "What lesson does this child need to learn, and how can I teach it?" This is where parents falter. It's hard to figure out what lessons we want to teach our kids other than "Never do that again!"

Parents have to identify the problem and gain the child's cooperation. To do this, you must mean business, but also show respect to the child. Talk about the problem. And finally, evaluate if the lesson was taught.

Here's an example: My young son won't go to bed. So, what do I want to teach him? First, that when I say that it's time for bed, it is, because routine is important. Another lesson is that going to sleep at bedtime is important for good health. And my third lesson is that in healthy relationships, people work together, not against each other. So, even though I have set a limit with the bedtime, I still work with my son to make him as comfortable as possible. He can play with his stuffed animals, listen to tapes, or imagine that he is a character from a book as he lies in bed.

Why do parents have such a hard time saying "no" to their kids?

M.S.: I think it's partly because we don't spend as much time with our children as we think we should, so we feel guilty. When we are with them, we want to be their friend and make them happy. We think that the best way to do this is to say "yes" all the time. We're horribly misguided.

And when we feel guilty, we overindulge our kids. This is no gift to children. Kindergarten and first-grade teachers tell me that their biggest problem with students is that they won't be quiet when the teachers are talking. This is partly due to parents' overindulging their kids. No one ever tells kids, "Just a moment please, Mommy and Daddy are talking."

Lots of parents rely on time-outs. Does this method really work?

M.S.: Time-outs are easy -- you can put a child in time-out for anything and there's no thinking required. But time-outs are now being used as a punishment. And like any punishment, the first couple of times you use it, it works quickly and effectively, but then it starts to lose its effectiveness.

Originally, a time-out was only used with kids when they were crying and bent out of shape. It was supposed to be a gift of time and space, not a form of punishment. A time-out gives an upset child the right to do nothing until he calms down. It can take place in a parent's arms, in a chair, or on the floor. It's our best tool in the arsenal of anger management.

Is it ever too late to begin setting limits with kids?

M.S.: It's only too late when the child doesn't live with you anymore. To set limits, you must be very committed, you must have the child's best interests at heart, and you must believe wholeheartedly that you're doing the right thing. The mistakes parents make tend to be based on their own personalities. The changes I had to make as a parent went right up against who I've always been. It's very hard to change!